What They're Saying
Somerville Mayor Joe Curtatone Refutes Verizon Propaganda on “Finneran’s Forum”
June 01, 2007 - WRKO-AM - Finneran's Forum
TOM FINNERAN, host:
You know, this is--there's some days where you just don't
have enough time to squeeze it in, and every item you have
is a diamond, it's like a gem. And we're about to have one
with Steve Bailey, another jewel of a debate here with The
Boston Globe's Steve Bailey. Every day at this time on
FINNERAN'S FORUM, we do the Boston Business Report.
Welcome back, Steve Bailey.
Mr. STEVE BAILEY (The Boston Globe): Well, Tom, we'll just
have to talk faster then, won't we?
FINNERAN: Apparently, we will. We'll accelerate it.
We'll put it on 78 RPM.
Mr. BAILEY: How you doing, Tom?
FINNERAN: Yeah. I'm doing great, Steve. Hey, our little
conversation yesterday triggered some discussion out there
in the outside world. No surprise. I'm sure you know the
gentleman I'm about to bring on, Joe Zukowski from Verizon.
I've known him for years. He's a good, good guy. I think
he's taken a little issue, Steve, with your ideas about a
solution to the cable wars here in Massachusetts.
Mr. BAILEY: Well, at least they're paying attention.
FINNERAN: They sure are. So, I welcome Joe--Joe Zukowski
from Verizon.
Joe, thanks for reaching out to us and giving us a chance
to explore this a little bit more.
Mr. JOE ZUKOWKSI (Vice President of Government Relations,
Verizon): No problem, Tom. Good morning, Steve.
Mr. BAILEY: Hey, Joe. How you doing?
Mr. ZUKOWSKI: Good.
FINNERAN: OK. So, I'm going to try to be the referee, and
every once in awhile, I'll jump in.
But my recollection is Steve Bailey said yesterday this:
'Hey, enough is enough. I'm a big believer in the free
market. Competition works for every consumer. What is it
that we're afraid of? And why would Verizon be trying to
game the system? Let them go out and compete for my
dollar, my affection, my support. And, you know, let
Comcast and Verizon fight it out in the marketplace.' And
Joe just said 'We need a little fair time on this because
I'm not sure that Steve Bailey presented it fairly.'
Is that a good summary from your perspective, Joe?
Mr. ZUKOWSKI: As always, Tom.
FINNERAN: OK. Good enough. Well, Joe, I'm going to let
you start it off there because Bailey's waiting in the
woods and he's got a Louisville Slugger.
Mr. ZUKOWSKI: Right. Well, here's the deal. We're--we've
been trying to get into the cable TV business in
Massachusetts, basically, which has been a monopoly for
decades. And we're trying to bring in new technology and
new competition that--that consumers really want. The
problem--the problem is one of process.
We've got a decades-old process that we've got to go hat in
hand to every town in the--in the area that we want to do
business in and ask for a permit, basically, a 'me, too'
permit for cable TV. And, you know, it's supposed to work
and get these permits in 12 months. Our experience has
been that the average time it's taken us to get a permit in
Massachusetts is 15 months. And we have some towns that
we've been laboring for about two years, and we still don't
have a positive approval of a--a competitive cable
franchise.
FINNERAN: OK.
Mr. ZUKOWSKI: In our view, consumers shouldn't have to
wait that long to get a choice in cable TV.
FINNERAN: And so, before I go to Steve for a response, the
legislation that you would pursue or propose, Joe, would do
what to those cities and towns who are moving too slowly
for you?
Mr. ZUKOWSKI: Well, basically, what it would do is fix the
process, and that's what's broken here. It's not the
people. It's the process. It would bump the permit up
from a local level to a state level, make a more
predictable permit cycle. And in return, give a package of
community benefits that includes some compensation to the
town, channels for local access programming, and--and, you
know, other benefits that, you know, are important
to--legitimately important to communities.
FINNERAN: That's why Joe Zukowski is seen as an astute,
articulate leader, Steve Bailey. It all sounds reasonable
to me. So, what does Bailey say to that?
Mr. BAILEY: Well, fair enough.
Joe, we want you here. Let's not make any
misunderstanding. We like competition. So, come on in.
We want you here. And I do believe that it will lower
prices. So, come on in. But I'm just listening to you,
Joe. You say the process is supposed to take 12 months.
It's taking 15 months. Seems like a lot of whining for
three months, in my point of view. Last time I redid my
kitchen, the guy told me it would take three months. It
took six months.
Mr. ZUKOWSKI: Well, here's...
Mr. BAILEY: Joe, that's life.
Mr. ZUKOWSKI: ...the problem: 13 other states around the
country, so far, have already looked at the technology and
decided not only is the technology important for our
infrastructure and our economies, but the competition is
great for consumers. And they've streamlined the process
to get it down to as little as 17 days in Texas, 15 days in
Florida, 45 days in California, 44 days in New Jersey. All
these states that we compete with for everything else have
figured out a way to do this. Why can't we do it in
Massachusetts?
Mr. BAILEY: Well, you just told me 13 states have done it.
It tells me 37 states haven't done it.
Mr. ZUKOWSKI: Yeah. But 60 percent of the population is
under statewide franchising...
FINNERAN: Joe, let me--
Mr. ZUKOWSKI: ...right now.
FINNERAN: Joe, let me ask you a question. The resistance
to your proposal comes from...
Mr. ZUKOWSKI: Well, it comes from, as you can imagine, the
cable industry.
FINNERAN: Yeah?
Mr. ZUKOWSKI: You know, it doesn't want to see
competition. So, every day we're not in this business is a
great day for them. You know, we're also seeing concerns
at local--some local municipalities, you know. Folks who
don't want to change processes that have been around since,
you know, the puritan days.
Mr. BAILEY: Well, you know, you just told me they've been
around for a decade.
Mr. ZUKOWSKI: I'm sorry?
Mr. BAILEY: You just told me they've been around for a
decade.
Mr. ZUKOWSKI: But the--the rules have been around for
decades.
Mr. BAILEY: Listen, Joe, you--in the last years, you've
negotiated deals in 30 cities and towns.
Mr. ZUKOWSKI: Yeah.
Mr. BAILEY: That tells me you can do it. And as we talked
about yesterday on this show, I pulled out a couple of
quotes from BusinessWeek, from Ivan Seidenberg, your CEO.
One, he says, "We haven't been turned down anyplace we've
gone." The other he says, "We have the ability to work the
current system." Work the current system.
Mr. ZUKOWSKI: Well, that's the problem. The current
system in Massachusetts doesn't compare favorably to other
states. We went down to Florida, in Hillsborough County,
Florida where, frankly, county government matters, and we
got one permit and got access to 280,000 subscribers. We
had to get 45 permits in Massachusetts to get that same
number. So, what that tells, you know, somebody who wants
to invest, you know, literally, hundreds of millions of
dollars in Massachusetts is, 'Come here. We want the
competition, but it's going to take 50 times the work to do
it.'
Mr. BAILEY: Didn't Comcast and Cablevision go through,
basically, the same process?
Mr. ZUKOWSKI: Yeah. But they got a monopoly in return.
So, they went through this process years ago. And they'll
say, 'Geez. We went through this process, you should,
too.'
FINNERAN: And that's the--that's what I recall. I can
remember when--I think it was the Kevin White
administration was doing Cablevision, cable TV, the big,
big process. And it was--there was that--that exclusivity,
or that monopoly grant, to whoever was deemed the winner in
those sweepstakes. And so, now, Joe, your point of view
is, 'We're here to end the monopoly. And we may win in
some competitions, and we may lose some. But at least
there'll be competition for the Baileys and the Finnerans.'
Mr. ZUKOWSKI: Right. And to your very point, let us get
in and slug it out in the market. What's happening is you
didn't see the $99 Triple Play package until Verizon
entered the market. People are--are saving dollars on
their cable, Internet and phone bills, and packages because
we have a new competitor on the street.
Mr. BAILEY: You know, Joe, like I said over and over, I
want you guys here. Come on. It--competition certainly
lowered phone rates. All right? So, I want to lower my
cable rate. There's no question about it. I have yet to
speak one word to anybody at Comcast, but I have listened
to the cities and towns a lot. And from what I here, they
want you there, too, but they want to have a chance to sit
and negotiate with you. And they think, you know, the
process can work.
Mr. ZUKOWSKI: Well, I think the process can work, too, in
a different way. What we're offering here is a package of
benefits that are substantially the same as they're getting
now. So, why spend a year or two if we're negotiating the
same deal? We negotiated--
Mr. BAILEY: You just told me the average takes 15 months.
Mr. ZUKOWSKI: Right, but--
Mr. BAILEY: It should take 12 months.
Mr. ZUKOWSKI: This is a contract, Steve. You know, 30
pages of paper. Basically, now, we've negotiated about 45
of these things. They're all about the same. The
financials are different, based on the population of the
town, but it's a contract that just keeps rolling over and
over, and over again. You shouldn't have to spend more
than a year negotiating the same 30 pages of paper.
FINNERAN: So, you're saying the pattern of concessions and
things that you've given to the cities and town with whom
you've negotiated--local--local access channels, community
benefits, or mitigation, or reparations, or some kind of
thing, whatever the hell you call it--really falls into
kind of a predictable block. And--and that that's captured
in the legislative proposal you've made, Joe.
Mr. ZUKOWSKI: Exactly. And that's the approach these
other forward thinking and looking states have taken.
Standardize conditions, bump the permit up to a state
level, but make sure communities keep getting benefits.
FINNERAN: Steve, it makes me wish--
Mr. BAILEY: So, what is the right number?
FINNERAN: Steve--Steve, it makes me wish I was back on the
legislature. This is a good old fist fight. There are
great arguments on each side. You say, 'Oh, my God. What
the hell are we going to do?' And then, what we'd usually
do is we'd read--we'd turn to Steve Bailey's column for
advice.
Mr. BAILEY: Hey, listen. A lot--there are a lot of us who
would still like to see you in the Legislature, Tom.
FINNERAN: Joe Zukowski from Verizon, thank you so much. I
mean, I thought I knew a lot after talking to Steve
yesterday, and I did. And now, I know even more. I really
do feel as if--
Mr. ZUKOWSKI: Well, it's a good debate. And--and we're
looking forward to, you know, furthering this debate in the
Legislature, getting a real examination of what the real
issues are.
FINNERAN: Hey, wait a minute. I've got to keep both of
you guys on. Don't go yet. Don't go yet. I've got Mayor
Joe Curtatone calling in from Somerville. This is going to
be great. Oh, my god.
Mr. BAILEY: Reinforcements.
FINNERAN: This is like professional wrestling. Somebody
else is coming into the ring.
Mr. Mayor, welcome to FINNERAN'S FORUM.
Mayor JOE CURTATONE (Somerville): Mr. Speaker, how are
you?
FINNERAN: I'm--
Mayor CURTATONE: It's just like Verizon. Someone comes in
the room, they run right out. It's unbelievable.
FINNERAN: All right. Steve Bailey, Joe Zukowski and now,
Mayor Joe Curtatone.
Mayor, you've--Mr. Mayor, you've been listening to Steve
Bailey and Joe Zukowski from Verizon. I think Joe has done
a great job presenting the Verizon point of view. What is
your vision, what is your experience on this? Good or bad?
Mayor CURTATONE: Let me just say, first of all, so that
everybody understands, I chaired a taskforce, the
telecommunications taskforce, made up of mayors, and county
administrators, and managers and the Mass Municipal
Association against the Verizon bill. Now, let's make no
mistake here. This bill was written for Verizon, by
Verizon. By one corporation for their benefit here.
We have a proven methodology of negotiating these franchise
agreements across the commonwealth. And I think, Steve,
you said they had 38 franchise agreements. They actually
have 48 agreements done, in hand, 22 more teed up. So,
this is not about competition. This is about Verizon
stuffing its corporate coffers with more money. And if
they allow--this bill for Verizon is allowed to be passed,
millions of Massachusetts cable--constituents and clients
will be left out in the cold because they'll be able to red
line and cherry pick which neighborhoods they want to
build.
This is not about competition. And, in fact, Somerville,
again, we love the way of cable competition.
FINNERAN: Joe, let me--Joe, let me jump in here...
Mayor CURTATONE: Yeah.
FINNERAN: ...on this red-lining comment that you just
made.
Mr. ZUKOWSKI: Yeah.
FINNERAN: Because it seems to me that under the process
you're defending, status quo...
Mayor CURTATONE: Yeah.
FINNERAN: ...or the process that Joe was talking
about--Joe Zukowski from Verizon was talking about, of
course they're going to look at those communities that look
to be most economically advantageous first. Any
businessman would do it. You'd do the same--you'd probably
do the same thing. I bet you'd do the same thing in your
elections. You look at precincts--
Mayor CURTATONE: It's not even about the communities, Tom,
though.
FINNERAN: Huh?
Mayor CURTATONE: It's not about communities. They come
in--if they were to come into Somerville, they wouldn't
build on every neighborhood. They'd pick out, you
know--those that were more economically disadvantaged, they
wouldn't build out those neighborhoods. So--
Mr. ZUKOWSKI: Mr. Mayor, you know, honestly, that's not
true. I mean--and--and if you read the legislation, I'd be
happy to show you the chapter and verse where it says,
number one, you--you'd--much like today, you'd have to
built out the entire service area that you name in your
application. Secondly, there are antidiscrimination
clauses in the proposed bill that mirror the federal
discrimination clauses to prevent discrimination based on
income.
Further, there are enforcement provisions that allow either
the municipality or the attorney general to take action if
somebody doesn't, basically, do what they said they'd do.
So, I would appreciate it--
Mayor CURTATONE: What's amazing here--well, here's what's
amazing here because it still comes down--listen, I turned
on the radio this morning, almost tripped coming out of my
house as my kids were chasing me because I wanted to chime
in.
I keep hearing 15 months versus 12 months. Again, Verizon
has 48 agreements in its hand, 22 teed up. This is not
about competition. In fact, we, Somerville, asked Verizon
to come in. They wouldn't even return our calls. I'd work
out a franchise agreement with them right now, most
communities will. They just want to cherry-pick where they
build and red line where they want to build out.
This bill is written for Verizon, by Verizon. We have a
proven methodology of negotiating franchise agreements in
this commonwealth. It works. The reason they're
pass--trying to pass this legislation is because, as you
know, what happened with the SEC ruling, we're still
grandfathered in. Again, this is something you would see
out of the old Republican congressional guard. I think the
Massachusetts legislature is a little bit smarter than
this. I don't think this is going to pass. But--
FINNERAN: Steve Bailey, it sounds like you've got an ally
in the mayor. And, Joe, you got some work to do over
there. But you just got an offer. And every resident in
Somerville has to be thankful for the FORUM. It looks like
you've got a great opportunity to cut a deal with the
mayor, Joe.
Mayor CURTATONE: Come on in. Come on in.
Mr. ZUKOWSKI: Well, we've heard from towns and, more
importantly, we've heard from consumers. Nine out of 10
consumers say they want cable competition. That's the
constituency here.
Mayor CURTATONE: Well, return my calls. Tell Verizon,
return my calls. Come on in. We'll sit at the table.
FINNERAN: Sounds like a deal.
Mr. BAILEY: Very interesting stuff today, Tom.
FINNERAN: You're telling me, Steve. And we'll save your
column, maybe, for early next week because your column
today is fabulous. Everybody should go out and get The
Globe just for Steve Bailey's column today because we're
going to tee that up for a longer conversation. We just
can't do justice to your column today, Steve, with this
one.
Joe Zukowski, I appreciate him, one, coming on. And two,
just a little anecdote to shut down this debate on--on the
cable wars. I ran into a local official yesterday. I'm
not going to name him. Everyone would know who he is. And
he said as soon as they started talking in his town about
bringing in Verizon, Comcast lowered the price.
Everybody's benefited. Competition does work. I think
it's a question of how the heck we're going to get there as
fast as possible.
To Steve Bailey from The Boston Globe, and with whom I do
the Boston Business Report, Joe Zukowski and Mayor
Curtatone, thank you. We'll be back to calls and
commentary on FINNERAN'S FORUM.
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